colsoncj's rigs + general chit chat

[colsoncj]

from previous:

colsoncj:
We still need to get together and go wheelin sometime, but I dont know if I'll ever get my rig back together... I just got the front taken care of and now the rear needs shoes, wheel cylinders, and possibly a new wheel bearing.... If it does need all that, I'm selling the 3rd and putting a narrowed and shaved 14B in it.

gittinit:
A shaved 14 bolt huh? So you gonna put some 42s on that rig? I love the with and ground clearance of my toy stuff, heck I even shaved my rear diff just to get that litle extra, and it has paid off more than once. I used to own a chevy blazer with 3/4 ton axles and I had shaved the 14 bolt. Even with the 14bolt shaved and 36s it would still hang up where my friends toyotas on 33s wouldn't.

colsoncj:
I know, I know.... problem is i keep breaking crap... I fried the wheel bearings again, and they only had 30K on them.... I'm lookin for some stoutness.... I may regret it I know, but I'm lookin for some more reliablilty, any thoughts... PM me if you want, I know we are getting a little

On a side note, I also need the low down on the 22R's: with these 84's and the 85 I'm a little out of my element, I just know the fuely stuff...

gittinit:
I aint worried unless someone else is.....do we have mods?, mabye thay can move this to chit chat, we do have a talk section right?

Sounds like someone didn't use oem bearings, although I have had good results from timken in the past.

22r lowdown, well thats easy I can ramble on abut old school toy 4cylinders all day, but 1st one question....Which do ya want to run propane, efi or carb?
Let me know so I don't confuse you with all the closed/open chamber, and intake runner/compression mumbo jumbo.

[colsoncj]

Well, I know plenty about the 22RE, its the carbed versions I'm wantin to know more... Also, I know I had this info somewhere, but how do you tell the difference between a 20R and 22R, and can you convert a 22R to a 22RE without goin nuts?

I didnt use OEM bearings in the rear, I believe they were federal mogul... I also think it got a little water in it from a previous trip before I changed out the fluid (which was a little watery, but not bad at all. Looked like it hadnt been in there long.) I need to extend my diff breather, never had a problem until I knocked it off the housing, which I just noticed when I drained the fluid the last time...

[colsoncj]

And after thinking about it some more, I may stick with the toy rear... I dont think I want to go through the mess of swapping, and now that I have this 84, it'll get the rear out of my 87 when the time comes to swap to something more heavier duty (about the same time I swap a roller 302 in it hopefully...)

[gittinit]

79-80 model pickups and such were offered with the 20r motors. I currently have 2 so I can get some pics if ya want. The easiest way to identify a 20r is...If it running stock carb the part of the carb where the breather sits is round. The 22r carbs will be more square with one side being bigger than the other. I forgret the name of the particular shap, but I think its called a trapazoid.
Here is a pic of the 22r carb

Here is a pic of the top of the 20r carb. Notice the valve cover is from a later model 22r motor.

The easiest way of identifying blocks between 20r and 22r is by the tag on the drivers side just behind the alternator.
Here is a pic for referance.

[colsoncj]

perfect...

now, any differences between 22R and 22RE? (besides fuel injection...)
i.e. head, timing cover, etc...

[colsoncj]

also, some info about my current projects:

http://www.yotatech.com/f147/new-trucks-128456/

[gittinit]

Yes you can convert a 22r to re with little to no issues. There are 2 different versions of the 22r motor. The 1st was the tall deck versions(open chamber), and the second being the shortdeck versions.

Both can be converted to use the efi from the 22re series motores, but the later shortdeck motors are the best choice, and are better suited. I have read somewhere that the cams were ground slightly differently between these the shortdeck(sd) 22r, and the re series motors, but I have no proof to confirm this.

The (td) 22r is the worst canidate for efi swaps becouse there is no threaded hole in the block for the knock sensor. (early celica efi systems didn't use the knock sensor) I have suscessuffly helped a friend swap a 84 tall deck 22r motor into his efi equipped 85 4runner by simply relocating the knock sensor to the older block by drilling and tapping a hole in a factory boss on the older style bock. It is my opinion though that this created a slight loss of power becouse the knock sensor was getting a delayed reading and compensating by adjusting the timing appropriately. This too could be compensated for with a lc engeneering adjustable timing gear, but he has since lost interest, and this toy now sits.

The easiest way to use a 22r in an efi application would to source a shortdeck 22r which were offered since 1985.

Here is a pic of the saturn shaped casting in the side of the 22r block that allows easy identification.
Notice the square 22r identification ta in the left hand side of the pic. Now next to the mount bolts for the coolant crossover tube mount bolts there is a rounded shape with ears...thats the identifying shure fire way of knowing you have a short deck block.

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

Here is a pic of the saturn shaped casting in the side of the 22r block that allows easy identification.
This is where it will be when I find the stupid pic I took a couple years ago.

I'm hoping that picture tells the difference between the sd and td 22Rs...

I thought there was a difference in the 22Rs... now I know for sure. I remember talking with a buddy and him mentioning the deck height difference. He figured it out from the difference in timing chains, so I'll assume the timing covers are different as well.

Any idea how to tell the difference in timing covers? I'm assuming it would just be a simple height measurement, but I'm unsure of what the numbers are.

Also, are the heads the same between the sd and td versions (cam excluded)?

[colsoncj]

Found this:

Originally Posted by http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20Information/22r_tech_notes.htm

Turbo models appeared briefly as the 22RTE in 1985-1988 on Pick-up and 4Runners. The 22RE Fuel injection models appeared in 1983, on some Celica and Pick-up models. In 1985- the 22RE had a major change. The block was taller and the head shorter, compared to the earlier models. The engines' blocks and heads are not interchangeable (for practical and cost purpose).

The engines are OHC design, with hemispherical combustion chambers. The cross-flow head was very efficient, short of a 2 or 4 valve (per cylinder) Twin Cam. The long stroke provided a lot of torque at a reasonable RPM range. The engine responded well to all the tuning tricks. The 20R head is different from the 22R heads. The 20R had open combustion chambers and the 22R had a swirl-inducing chamber (for cleaner emissions). The intake ports on the 20R were round, and rectangular on the 22R. Exhaust ports were identical round design. The later 22RE (with the shorter deck height) had keyhole shaped exhaust ports. There were available 22RE models that used the earlier 22R head, in the 1982 to 1984 Celica GTS. All 22RE from 1985 used the later blocks and heads.

The 22RTE Turbo engine was based on the later model 22RE (short block /tall head). This is a similar but entirely different block and head. The block was drilled with different oil passages to accommodate the Turbo oil requirements. The cylinder head's combustion chamber had a different shape. The piston was dished. Advertised horsepower was 145. The factory set the boost at 5.5-6 pounds, but completely stock internals survived boosts of up to 17-22 pounds, with proper fuel injection modifications. This is a testimony to the bulletproof bottom end design. Nitro / Methanol fueled dragsters, producing in excess of 1100 HP- used the original (modified) crankshafts and TOYSPORT pistons!

[colsoncj]

So apparently the head is different between the sd and td.... now how do you tell the heads apart?

[gittinit]

Originally Posted by colsoncj

So apparently the head is different between the sd and td.... now how do you tell the heads apart?

Oh thats easy if the head is off the block just look at the combustion chamber shape. If the chamber shape is round in shape then it is a talldeck, or openchamber head. If the combustion chambers are a pear shape then you have the head from a shortdeck r series motor.
Here is a pic of a sd combustion chamber.

[gittinit]

I have pics of this too but I can't seem to find em. My photobucket acct is a mess. I need to spend a mont just organizing it but I'm afraid it will break some of the links I want hanging aroud here and there on the net.

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

Oh thats easy if the head is off the lock just look at the combustion chamber shape. If the chamber shape is round in shape then it is a talldeck, or openchamber head. If the combustion chambers are a pear shape then you have the head from a shortdeck r series motor.

sweet..

More info I found:
The short deck has a slightly lower block than the tall deck. (duh)
The short deck uses a 2 less links in the timing chain. 96 vs 98 links
I have been told that the 96 link single row chain can be upgraded to a double row by using a modified early 22R timing cover, oil pump, drive spline.
The 20R exhaust manifold had air injection that mounted on the manifold top and no oxygen sensor mount.
The 22R does not and some do and dont have an oxygen sensor mount.
The 20R exhuast manifold outlet has a single outlet into the exhuast pipe.
The 22R exhaust manifold had dual outlet.
The 20R exhaust manifold usually had 1 lower center mount stud.
The 22R exhaust manifold usually had 2 lower center mount studs.
Some early 22R exhaust manifolds had single lower center stud hole.
Some 22R exhaust manifolds had both configs of holes and had 3 holes.
Aftermarket exhuast manifolds usually fit all 20R/21R/22R by having all possible holes.
(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...pho/eng20R.htm)

On some of that I'm not so sure, I think the 22R also had the air injection. Plus, after 20 years, who knows what has gotten swapped out....

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

I have pics of this too but I can't seem to find em. My photobucket acct is a mess. I need to spend a mont just organizing it but I'm afraid it will break some of the links I want hanging aroud here and there on the net.

lol, i completely understand....

[colsoncj]

some great info:
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar119838.htm

EDIT: it has the pictures you are looking for (diffences in the heads...)

[colsoncj]

Measurements for ref: (I know, im answering my own questions....)

Proper Deck Heights – Blocks & Heads

Whenever you go through an engine or cylinder head re-build, there will be some amount of "re-surfacing" that has to be performed to either the block or the head. Most frequently, it's the cylinder head. This is also known as "decking."
For machining purposes, deck height on an engine block is the measured distance between the "Center Line of the Main Journal" to the "Deck Surface". This can only be performed with the engine block disassembled and the crankshaft removed. Toyota factory heights would be:

Early 20R Blocks 75-80 9.120"
Early 22R Blocks 81-84 9.120"
Late 22RE Blocks 85-95 8.930"

For easy identification purposes, with the engine still assembled, deck height on an engine block is the measured distance between the "Oil Pan Rail" (bottom of the engine block) to the "Deck Surface" (top of the engine block). Toyota 20R, 22R and 22RE engine blocks have these factory deck heights:

Early 20R Blocks 75-80 11.280"
Early 22R Blocks 81-84 11.280"
Late 22RE Blocks 85-95 11.090"

Deck height on a cylinder head is the distance between the bottom of the "Camshaft Journal" to the "Surface of the Cylinder Head" itself. Toyota 20R, 22R and 22RE cylinder heads have these factory deck heights:

Early 20r/22R Heads 75-84 3.290"
Late 22R/22RE Heads 85-95 3.130"

These numbers are especially important if you have purchased a pre-owned engine and have no idea what, if any, modifications were made prior. In other words, it's a starting point in establishing how much re-surfacing has already been performed to the head or block. Example: If you have a late 22RE cylinder head that has a measured deck height of 3.110", then it is probably safe to say that the head has been "decked" approximately 0.020".

c/o LC Engineering

[gittinit]

Did you know that 20 r motors and 22r motors all use the same crank and conecting rods from 79 through 95?
Early 20R Blocks 75-80 9.120"
Early 22R Blocks 81-84 9.120"
Another weird fact is that even though these blocks had the same deck height the 20r uses flat top pistons and the early (td)22r uses dome pistons.

[gittinit]

Here are a couple pics of the 20r and the 22r exhaust ports. Notice the 20r has round ports while the 22r has teardrop shaped ports.

20r


22r

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

Here is a pic of the saturn shaped casting in the side of the 22r block that allows easy identification.
Notice the square 22r identification ta in the left hand side of the pic. Now next to the mount bolts for the coolant crossover tube mount bolts there is a rounded shape with ears...thats the identifying shure fire way of knowing you have a short deck block.

Like So?

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

Another weird fact is that even though these blocks had the same deck height the 20r uses flat top pistons and the early (td)22r uses dome pistons.

Isnt that due to a head change?

EDIT: the ID difference between the two being a 20R has round intake ports in the head and the 22R has square....

[gittinit]

Hey thats great! I'm gonna have to save that for future reference....for schoolin newbs.

[gittinit]

Originally Posted by colsoncj

Isnt that due to a head change?

EDIT: the ID difference between the two being a 20R has round intake ports in the head and the 22R has square....

I'm pretty shure the 20r motors are considered closed chamber like the sd 22rs. The difference being the piston travels ito the combustion chamber on a td 22r where it dosent on 20r or sd 22r motors.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There wasn't an overall desighn change , but instead just a little tweaking on toyotas behalf. Hell the 20r heads flow better than the 22r heads do, why would toyota change for the worse?

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

I'm pretty shure the 20r motors are considered closed chamber like the sd 22rs. The difference being the piston travels ito the combustion chamber on a td 22r where it dosent on 20r or sd 22r motors.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I dont know... I do know the heads are different, and have different combustion chamber sizes... beyond that your knowledge is probably better than my guess.

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by colsoncj

I dont know... I do know the heads are different, and have different combustion chamber sizes... beyond that your knowledge is probably better than my guess.

1975 1982 20R Cylinder Head
Round Intake Port / Round Exhaust Port
80 / 81cc Chamber
In. Valve Dia. 43mm / Ex. Valve Dia. 35mm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1981 / 84 22R / RE Cylinder Head
Square Intake Port / Round Exhaust Port
82 /83 cc Chamber
In. Valve Dia. 44.5mm / Ex. Valve Dia. 36.5mm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1985 / 95 22R / RE Cylinder Head
Square Intake Port / Pear Shaped Exhaust Port
58 cc Chamber or 22RET (Turbo)
In. Valve Dia. 44.5mm / Ex Valve Dia. 36.5mm

c/o LC Engineering

[gittinit]

Originally Posted by colsoncj

wait... does the saturn mean sd or td.... I found this: http://lcengineering.com/TechNotes/TechNote49.htm

which looks like its saying the saturn = td....

1985 - 1995 22R-22RE "Laser Block"
Deck Height 11.090"
Stock Bore 92.0mm - 3.622"
Maximum Over Bore 93.0mm - 3.6662"
Big Bore Forged Piston Kit 94.0mm - 3.701"


isn't that what I wrote?

Just to clearify. saturn= lazerblock=sd=short deck=flattop pistons= closed chamer heads= flat top pistons= 85-95

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

There wasn't an overall desighn change , but instead just a little tweaking on toyotas behalf. Hell the 20r heads flow better than the 22r heads do, why would toyota change for the worse?

Working in the auto industry for a while, changes like that are usually due to one of two things:
1) its cheaper
2) Some regulation (read: emissions)

[colsoncj]

I do have some more questions for ya... what do I need to know about the carbs? any tricks for adjustment, problems, things to remove or add....

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

Just to clearify. saturn= lazerblock=sd=short deck=flattop pistons= closed chamer heads= flat top pistons= 85-95

You are correct, I got myself confused thinking the later models were the td... I deleted my confusing posts....

EDIT: I also want to say thanks for all the info and help!

[gittinit]

Originally Posted by colsoncj

I do have some more questions for ya... what do I need to know about the carbs? any tricks for adjustment, problems, things to remove or add....

I don't have an answer for ya there. I am one of the lucky few who havent ever had to mess with there carbs. I figure the po had problems though becouse the 38 webber was on this truck when I got it. It works well and most would ever guess its a carb out on the trail. It even fools the efi guys.

I have considered propane though becouse it floods when I stand the truck on the rear bumper. My carb will also starve its self of fuel when I'm on my pass side, it will run on the driverside though.

[colsoncj]

Originally Posted by gittinit

I don't have an answer for ya there. I am one of the lucky few who havent ever had to mess with there carbs. I figure the po had problems though becouse the 38 webber was on this truck when I got it. It works well and most would ever guess its a carb out on the trail. It even fools the efi guys.

I have considered propane though becouse it floods when I stand the truck on the rear bumper. My carb will also starve its self of fuel when I'm on my pass side, it will run on the driverside though.

Interesting... I'm also going to assume that a 38 webber is not stock... what is?